CRE Success: The Podcast, S01E04

Ashley Buller, CBRE


people, business, leasing, one-percenters, commercial real estate, team, podcast, question, ashley, collaboration, book, leasing agent, success, role, melbourne, office



Welcome to CRE Success: The Podcast, where we help people working in commercial real estate achieve their professional goals. Check us out online at cresuccess.co/podcast. And now here's your host Darren Krakowiak.


Darren Krakowiak:

Hello and welcome to Episode Four of the podcast which is made especially for people who work in commercial real estate. If you want to achieve success more quickly and become a leader in your part of the industry, the insights we share here can help you get there. 

Today I'm speaking to Ashley Buller. Ash is the head of office leasing at CBRE in Victoria. Ash jumped ship from JLL to CBRE – a move that I've made before – in early 2020, causing a shift in the dynamics of the Melbourne CBD office leasing market. In today's interview, you're going to hear how Ash shifted from specializing in city fringe warehouses to focusing on shiny office buildings in the heart of the CBD; how he prepared for an increase in responsibility; and, you'll learn why being consistent in your dealings with colleagues, and taking an interest in people from outside your department, is critical for your own success. 

This podcast is about people who work in commercial real estate. If you have insights to share about how to be more successful in our industry, similar to what our guests share, or perhaps you can think of someone who would be great to hear from on this topic, we are open to recommendations for new guests. Just send me an email - darren@cresuccess.co - to pitch a new guest idea for a future episode. 

Stick around. This week's interview starts in 30 seconds 




Darren Krakowiak:

Ashley, welcome to CRE Success: The Podcast. 


Ashley Buller:



Darren Krakowiak:

Well, the first thing we do at the start of each episode is we ask our guests to get into the virtual elevator and to give us their 30 second introduction. So, Ashley, who are you?


Ashley Buller:

Great, okay, so Ashley Buller, so I head up leasing for CBRE and have been in the industry now for 20 years, roughly, a bit more than 20 years. So, started off with a small suburban firm, then moved to JLL. I was there for about 16 years, and I've now been with CBRE for about eight or nine weeks. So pretty new into the role. 


So how big is the team that you're leading at CBRE? 


So the team's 12 people in Melbourne so we've got a team that kind of covers all areas. So from the suburban market, all the way into kind of Richmond, St Kilda road, etc. And then CBD as well. So pretty much anything to do with him to the Victorian leasing market we cover 


Okay, and you're focused on office. 


Correct. So my personal focus is is, yes, CBD office, but our team just focuses on office, office leasing. 


So how did you actually get started in commercial real estate? 


Initially actually start off doing property management. So I did property management for quite some time, kind of cut my teeth on that and then at a particular point rolled into sales and leasing.


And at what point did you know that you wanted to be in commercial real estate? Was it something that you fell into? Or was there someone in your family that had done that in the past? How did you actually decide to get into it?


My father was a property developer, he did quite a lot of projects around the place I was always going after those projects etc. and prior to that it was actually a residential real estate agents to kind of learn a lot about those items. I think he'd always kind of highlighted to me that working weekends as in doing open for inspections and so forth was was fine. But you know, suddenly he'd always seen commercial colleagues kind of playing, playing that, you know, the the, I want to say nine to five is it’s never nine to five, right? But that kind of normal working week and then maybe having a that weekend, you're still working, you don't have those fixed kind of appointments. So he'd always suggested that was that that was the space to get into if I was gonna get into property. 


Definitely one of the perks of working in commercial real estate compared to residential real estate is not having to work on the weekend. And I guess an extra perk is the weekend starts at about 11:45 on a Friday.


Ha, ha. Yes, yeah. Nice comment there. So, look, I suppose the reality is right, like that. The nice thing about commercial property is Yeah, look, it's certainly it's certainly that ongoing relationship game we spent a long time doing and no matter what area of commercial property you’re in and I think certainly in leasing, etc. It's probably one of the things that you you, you build a relationship for a long period of time. So, you do, you end up kind of talking to somebody so much, you kind of like oh, would be nice on a Friday just to have actually a casual drink with you see, right, maybe not 11 I am but but you know, maybe one o'clock for a lunch of it and a drink is you know, it's just a nice way to finish off the week.


So Ashley, when I met you, many years ago at JLL in 2005, you were focusing on the Port Melbourne industrial or high tech industrial market, and now you're in the glamour of prime CBD office buildings, which is a bit of a jump. So, tell me how you maneuvered that change?


Yeah, so that was an interesting one look, our team went through quite a lot of changes in that industrial space. And I suppose Look, I probably, you know, I've been doing a lot of warehouse and office type uses within that within that kind of, you know, inner Port Melbourne pocket and like you say it was becoming more high tech. So some of the deals that were doing were becoming more predominant office than they were warehouse. And then I suppose what I what I looked at is looking at kind of the office leasing team and what they were doing and some of the high profile projects they were working on it kind of it always interest me and kind of I probably will have a bit of a bent towards the institutional clients as opposed to the privates, for a while I work well across both, I've probably there were some positives I liked about the institutional space in more than the, you know, the depth of analytical work you get to do for them. So that's kind of it was always something that was of interest to me. And then one of the guys approached me in the team and suggested that there was an opportunity and that, you know, should I should have a chat to them. And it pretty much all rolled from there. I was certainly with JLL while I was always making sure to, you know, I was talking to all the different business departments, etc. I felt like I had a very good network in there. So, not that I was working internally the space, it was just that, you know, I was I was comfortable with the business, generally. So I felt like there were probably different areas I could step into if I chose to, if I didn't want to stay in that in that same location or the same space.


So, one of the strategies for our listeners who are looking for career advancement and other career opportunities is to make sure you have a great network within the firms that you're working.


Yeah, correct. And I think going that extra mile for people as well. So, you know, because there's people that you know, within firms that they'll say hello, but they don't even know your name is or they'll, they'll know you when they need to know you and then they drop you pretty quickly. And I suppose what's important, and I, and I'm not suggesting that I'm perfect with everyone. But I think that I've tried to keep relatively consistent with everyone and be friendly with everyone. And I do honestly take interest in everybody's business, I actually, I really want to know what's going in industrial, I really care about what's going on in sales. And, and I think those those aspects kind of come through and I think that's important. But it's a little one percenters, right? It's, it's the same throughout real estate. But, you know, like, going to the company events, making sure you introduce yourself to people, you know, going up to the whoever that might be the head of property management, who has really no reason to talk to you, but going over and saying Hello. So let's chat about your business. I think that those things are so important, because it's really easy, especially when you start out in property, to kind of fall in your own little insular type, bubble, whatever that space is, and not branch out. Whereas I think where people do really well is when they do it, they talk to everybody, they get to know everybody's business and figure out how they can work with other people how they can help other people. 


And I'm sure that genuine curiosity in other people, not only helps with colleagues, but also with clients. 


Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's looking that's probably one of my one of my things actually, I really love. I love knowing about business. I love knowing what entrepreneurial people are doing or how businesses work or how they're making money or what their angle is that stuff really interests me. So it's actually, you know, it's genuine interest when I when I ask questions, really love all that stuff.


Awesome. So tell me about your current role. You said, you've been there for eight or nine weeks at CBRE Tell me more about how everything's going.


Yeah, so I'm a bit of a baptism of fire. Right. So I've been in there for a year. I don't know why it started off. I probably had about five weeks on the ground and the office during which time spent, well actually up until about last week, I spent the entire time just pitching on new products. So we've had a lot of new product that we've been pitching on, which is fantastic. It's kind of exactly what you want. But what that meant was that, while not only was I trying to get to learn that, you know that get to know the team a bit better, learn all the systems, as well as the entire business as well as our national and international colleagues. We've had all these pitches going on. So it's been it's been pretty extensive. Then, and add to that COVID, you know, Who would have ever thought? So I've gone from, you know, I've gone from going in there with a massive mandate to kind of expand the business, grow the business who we talking to, to pretty much right, you know, everything's on pause. And so that's that's been, it's been an interesting challenge that, you know, I suppose worldwide everybody's facing. So yeah, we're just trying to do the best we can in the current environment. 


And was the leadership role, something that you've been aspiring to for a while? 


Yeah, the leadership role is an interesting one. For my, my personality type is probably, I'm not a highly dominant personality. So the the role of running a team has always been something that I've really been interested in, but I haven't been pushing, pushing, pushing to do that. I must say. And it's probably a little bit because I just assumed that to be the, you know, to be the head of a big business, that you needed to have a really aggressive kind …or maybe a definitely focused plan on how things are going to get done and what gonna happen and, you know, almost like that some domineering style of doing things and that's, that's not really me and maybe that's why, it, you know, while it was of interest to me, I just wasn't sure whether it was gonna be me. Whereas what I've learned coming into this role is actually, look, I'm sure my colleagues, you know, they can confirm or deny this, I feel like I'm kind of rolling into it pretty well. My approach is more of a collaborative approach. My approach is more like, I feel like I'm more of a coach, more than anything, rather than telling people what to do. I'm more working with them, coaching them, helping them as much as I can, and then being there beside them. You know, my thing has always been that I want to be a leader in the business that's actually up the front you know the answer when the battle starts, I'm the first one out to battle. So rather than telling people to do it, I want to be out there with them. So, yes, there was probably a long answer to it, but I feel like it's, it's, you know, a much more comfortable with it and more comfortable with kind of my style now, which I wasn't 100% sure on before coming into this 


It sounds like you've got a good level of self awareness, which I think is important when you step into a role like that. So, given you understand the way that you like to approach things and your personality type, what are some of the things that you did specifically to prepare for stepping into the leadership role?


Yeah, good question. So, um, a lot of, lot of work on this. Funny, right? You spent all this time preparing for something like this. And, and I think that all of that really, really helps you. But when you come into the role, everything seems to be thrown, thrown out the door, and you just kind of, you're dealing with everything that's before you. Nnow, you hope that the training that you've done by that point, you then maybe you kind of you leverage those skills that you've been honing that you hadn't really realized that you'd learned…. once you get a long answer to it, so but I read books like The First 90 Days, which is actually a really good book, so not only did I I listened to it on a audio book, then I actually bought the physical book and then I went through that book multiple times and kind of learn the different styles and techniques now. deploying them. Maybe? To be honest, I've been so busy actually haven't had time to even go back to the book I wish I had. But it's just been just an absolutely frantic time over the last nine weeks…I think I will. I took a lot of notes before coming over. And then I read a book as well called Legacy, which is about the All Blacks, which I thought was a really good book as well. And that that talks about, it's, you know, it's, um, it's, you know, the whole concept around that book is you're creating this lasting legacy. So, it's more than just the doing the deal and so forth. It's about creating a, creating a culture, creating more than more than yourself, the team. And, you know, one thing they talk about in there is kind of sweeping out the sheds at the end of the day, right. So, you know, the way the book reads, and I haven't actually checked it out factually, is you know, that some of the best All Black players, they're the ones at the end of the day when everybody else is having a drink or whatever they might be doing at the end of the match. They're the ones sweeping out the sheds, just making sure that everything's clean. So it kind of shows that no matter where you sit in the business, you're never above kind of putting in the hard work and making sure you're there for everyone.


I have read The First 90 Days. It's a great book. I've heard of Legacy. I haven't read it. But that anecdote you just gave reminds me of a managing director who I know, you know, who used to be a leasing agent. And I was in the elevator with him once and there was some rubbish on the floor, and he picked it up. And he looked at me and he said, the old leasing agent in me means that I have to make sure that this elevator is clean. And I think it was great that, you know, even he was running the state, but it wasn't above him to do those, those things that are important in the team and that every part of the every part of the job is important.


Mm hmm. Yep. Agreed.


So you've prepared for the role, but then Coronavirus comes along. So how much of the preparation that you put in was actually not able to be implemented because you've had this huge curveball thrown at you?


Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, probably most of it, most of it. So, I probably got pages and pages to that but probably gonna, and I'm gonna pull up notes and then, you know, choreographed how things are going to lay out? How is it going to roll and everything? And, and yeah, most of it just got thrown out the window. Because you know, just because of COVID and the challenges that's presented and the challenges as well around kind of, you know, being there with team members and kind of building that natural rapport and, you know, going out for drinks after work in those kind of those face to face interactions that have such a massive impact on how a team works together. 




So, so yeah, it's actually it's actually made it quite challenging. The flip side to that is what I would say that COVID brings around is, and I'll show you, you've done it as well, Darren, like these zoom calls. And, you know, there's been a lot, a lot of zoom calls, like a ridiculous amount of calls. But the nice thing about the zoom calls is that everybody's on the line, everybody's active and everybody's quite engaged. So where maybe in a meeting people can almost get away with maybe not being engaged to a certain degree. I feel like on the zoom call, you're seeing everybody's faces. You're actually constantly looking at everybody all the time. So I feel like it is quite an engaging environment. And I think as well our staff engagement has gone up massively, because people are at home and not only is it about kind of business, but it's also just making sure that the mental health of everybody is there as well, because it's a tough time, like being at home all the time is challenging, especially there's people that have got kids and the rest of it. So, there's kind of pros and cons to this, this type of environment. And I think as well, look, you know, there's obviously been, you know, within the market, there's obviously a lot of people that that, you know, you know, redundancies and those kind of things that are coming through and, and everybody knows somebody that's, that's, unfortunately lost their job, or whatever that might be. And that's, that's a really scary time for anyone. So, I think that one of the reasons why I think, as a team, the zoom call is quite good. We're constantly together, and we're sharing ideas, and it's almost like we're in it together. And it maybe comes back to the piece I mentioned earlier. Right? Like, we're all in it together. So that's probably one thing that kind of is brought about, you know, so no matter where you sit right now, no matter how well you're doing, you probably still somewhat everybody's vulnerable, right now, because we don't know how long it'll go for a or what It is. So it's kind of, you know, so there's positives from that point of view that as a team, we're all we're all battling the same same battle.


I think pre Coronavirus, people used to get on video calls but not turn their videos on. I think post COVID-19 one good thing out of this is that people will always have new videos on for video conference calls, I will always be able to see each other and have more engagement, even when we're not in the same room. 


True true in saying that one thing I would say is I do think vehicles can somewhat be inefficient, depending on how many people you've got in there. Because, I, you know, I've certainly noticed that most people that are on a zoom call, or video call one and then add something to it. And if everybody adds that one little bit, you zoom calls can blow up pretty quickly. So having a good agenda, I think is a pretty crucial element that I think most people are coming, coming back to now.


Very good tactical tip: have an agenda…and a time limit for meetings, of course 


Correct, yeah. 


So what's your favorite thing about working in commercial real estate, Ashley? 


I love the transaction. My things always been about transactions. I'd love. And it probably comes back to that kind of entrepreneurial kind of intrigue that I've got, you know, seeing how things work and how they're doing and what they're doing. I feel like the deals along the same lines, trying to figure out how to get a deal to stack up, what the drivers are, what's going to make that work for that particular client. I do love that aspect. And then I suppose as well, obviously, the people element as well. So to a certain degree office leasing is a little bit like jumping into a marriage, right? Like some of these appointments, you're in for a long, long time. Like, we just had an agency agreement come through today. And it's for three years. And you kind of think about that, right? Like, I will likely talk to that person every day or every two days for three years. So, it's a pretty, it's a pretty full on thing. So, but actually kind of love that aspect of it because you get to know people, you get to work together. And it's a piece of kind of having a big challenge working together to kind of conclude a favorable outcome for everyone. So, yes, it's probably those two elements.


Just to clarify, Ashley, how long have you been married for?


Good question. I've got no idea I'd say like 12 years.


Well, if a 12 year appointment ever comes along from a, from a landlord, that would be, that would be a marriage worth having.


Yeah, that's Yeah, valid point, valid point.


So, what's the hardest part then of being a leasing agent?


I think the hardest parts, you know, certainly rejection is harder, you know, putting ever putting your heart and soul into a pitch and losing it. That's, that's really hard 


Does it get easier? As you as you've gone on your career, does it get easier or…


I think it does. But I actually think those people, I think, I think it does get easier, but I think the good people, it still hurts them. I think once you become immune to it, then you probably lose your edge. You know, like, I like the fact that I feel sick over the weekend after I lose something, right? Because it kind of means that I care about it, it means that I really, really want it and that I need to learn from it as well. So, I kind of use it as motivation for the next one, you know what I mean, I don't want to feel sick like that. Again, I want to win that next gig. But in saying that you're right, you get you know, you pitch in a lot more product, you kind of you win a lot, lose a lot. And it kind of it is what it is so yeah, probably gets, it gets slightly easier. But there's, it's never It's never easy when you, you know, you throw everything into it and, and and sometimes you know, it's it's the relationship sometimes it's the strategy. Sometimes it's nothing to do with what are you doing here. Like it might be something that's happening interstate or somewhere else within the business. So, there's always kind of contributing factors with those things. So, yeah, so I think that that's that certainly challenging, I think, but no one really loves canvas calling. I actually, don't mind it, because I kind of I probably like the challenge around it. And I like to routine… I think what you get your routine rolling that's, that's, that's alright. But, you know, I think a lot of people find that a difficult thing.


Let's just touch on cold calling for a second. You know, in recent years, people are less likely to call each other because they text. So, do you feel like it's more of an imposition when you actually call people on their mobile today than perhaps it was five years ago?


No, I actually think I actually think that that way…I think that's where a lot of people have gone wrong. I would always call somebody even even over email, I still don't even think emails got the…has its has the effectiveness that it had the past, there's nothing like… first of all, I'd love to meet them in person because just seeing people's body language what they're doing is so much that you can break from them. And second best is obviously phonecalls, we can still get to learn so much for phone calls, you can kind of throw out the probing questions, etc. I'd always prefer that I just feel like emails and especially now that you know, we're getting so many emails and so many texts and so many LinkedIn things etc. I just think that people are flooded with it. And personally from one of you, I, if I can circumvent dealing with an email or, or a, you know, LinkedIn inquiry or whatever that might be, as in from, you know, from a non property related activity, I probably will just because I feel like I'm bombarded constantly with it. That's where I think there's nothing as good as as that face to face or phone call interaction.


Okay, let's talk about success now. And what are some things that you deliberately and consistently do that contributes to your own success?


Hmm, it’s good question. Actually, I was thinking about this the other day. And I always ask this other people as well, because I love seeing how people have done what they've done and how they got to where they are. I remember talking to one of the guys overseas who ended up becoming a very, very, very important person within the business, kind of, you know, a big global player. And, and one of the things he always did was, it's, you know, it's one percenters, but it's the things like having a to do list and getting through it. So, you set up your to do list, you start in the morning, and you do the hardest things first. And I think that there's, there's something so important about that, because I think what happens is that, you know, to do list is good, but I think what we end up doing is we put all those simple things in there. And it's really easy to tick off the simple things and then leave the hard ones and then you just keep transferring them from page to page. Tackling those hard things, that's the most important thing and that's where you're gonna get the most value out of. So I think lifting those to the top and kind of tackling that and for me as well. I'm a morning person. So if I could A lot to do, I'll get up at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning sometime earlier, you know, not dissimilar to when I was studying at school, I get up at two o'clock in the morning and study from 2am until, you know, 10am because that was my time, that's when I was brightest or, you know, sparking the most so I feel like, yeah, that's, that's for me. I think it's, I think it's having the to do list. I think it's bringing the hard things to the front doing those things like 1%. And certainly, you know, coming to CB’s and seeing, you know, like, there's a couple of extremely successful teams like that, you know, the business itself is very successful. But you know, you certainly, you see some new styles of working from some of the, maybe the younger operators, all kinds of different operators that you wouldn't have otherwise had exposure to. And the one continual same essay is, is those one percenters. So it's a piece of after you after you've made a phone call, do you follow it up with an email and say thanks very much. And then you put a note in your diary to call that person in two weeks time and you do the same thing. And for the first six months, you probably get nothing back from that and it feels it feels like you've just wasted a lot of time. But then eventually, you know, and it happens with me as well. And actually the flip side, right where people are selling to me, I really value somebody that continually kind of keeps chasing me up and systematic with what they do. They come back to me, and eventually we build rapport and eventually they bought, you know, I still buy something from them. So I feel like that those little one percenters make a massive difference, and they’re the easiest things to drop. I think that's what most agents do. They just drop the one percenters and they just give up on it. And that's what's most important. When nothing's happening. Keep doing the one percenters because it will eventually pay off.


Great advice. What about leadership? What do you think is an attribute that makes a great leader?


I suppose you want to have a leader that's in the corner. So, there's a number of different aspects and there's multiple different leadership styles I've come across. Like I said, my leadership style is not so much domineering, it's probably more coaching and working with people, you know, in saying that there's no doubt that that's nice when you're young to have a leader that just takes control and does it. The challenge with that is probably that you don't learn as much yourself because you're not heavily involved in those interactions and those decisions and it kind of comes out of your hands but yeah, I think I think leading from the front is an important thing. So like I said, you know, that whole piece about, you know, if you're going into battle, make sure your front so if, you know, if you're pitching on something, make sure your front and center on it, even if you're not getting it, make sure your front, you know, even if even if you're not directly going to be benefiting from it, it's for the team. So make sure you're out there. I think loyalty is a crucial elements well, so I think employees want to know that, you know, that they've got, you know, you've got their back that you're gonna be loyal to them, you know, and you're gonna stand up for them when the chips are down, and that you're gonna be fighting in their corner. And then I think, do what you say you're gonna do, right? Like, I think there's a lot of people that talk a big game, but don't actually do it. So I think the key is to say you're gonna do it, just do it, get on and get it done. And then and probably that, that flows into this whole piece as well. And it's all intertwined into one, right, but I do remember bosses in the early parts of my career where they tell me what to do, but they wouldn't do it themselves. And I always really question right, well, how effective is that? If you've never deployed that tactic, and you've heard it in the book, but you're not utilizing is it actually effective. And you know what I mean? So there's that whole is that a it you know, it doesn't match up that sort of thing, do what you say you're gonna do. And, you know, and this leading from the front, they're all intertwined together. 


Definitely final question because we're just about out of time. If you could give one piece of advice to someone who's at the start of their commercial real estate career, what would that advice be? 


I probably say…if I look back at my career, where if you know, the different areas I've been in, it's probably it's quite good to work at relatively early on in your career, where you want to go what you want to do. So I probably suggest that you want to, you want to try different areas. You don't want to pigeon self pigeonhole yourself in one particular area, because, you know, I probably never thought I'd ever end up in office leasing nearly an office leasing, I kind of think, jeez, I wish I had to tackle this earlier on in my career, now has it impacted me. Yes, and no, you know, I feel like my relationships would have been more long standing, how I got into it earlier, etc. But, um, but then the flip side to that is right, you know, I think that if I had to try out other areas, my bet would have gone to those as well. So I just think trying the different spaces As much as you can, is probably a good thing. And I think, you know, there's a number of businesses that have that graduate program, I think that's a great thing if you can get involved in that. And then that's a piece of kind of getting to know your fellow colleagues in the office. So say for instance, you get an opportunity in industrial, commercial leasing, sales, whatever it might be, you know, just make sure that you are broadening your relationship deeper than just your own particular sector, just to make sure that you know, if an opportunity arises, and especially when you're young, you know, you get that presented to you, because you just never know which direction you might end up going in and where you might end up in life. 


Ashley, you've been extremely generous with sharing your perspective. I'm sure that the leadership of CBRE’s leasing team here in Melbourne is going to go in a great direction with you at the helm. Thanks so much for joining us on CRE Success: The Podcast. 


Ashley Buller:

My pleasure, mate, thank you.



For more information about our guests visit cresuccess.co/podcast And now a final thought from Darren Krakowiak.


Darren Krakowiak:

Thank you once again to Ashley for spending time with us. Ash was actually one of the first people to commit to being a guest on the show, so I'm very grateful for his support. 

Now back on episode two, I invited you to submit any questions that you would like answered on the podcast. And this week, I'd like to share a question I received from Imran. The question is about how to develop a better understanding of other service offerings outside of your own area of expertise. In particular, Imran would like to know, how does one get the basic knowledge and skills from other business lines, which are necessary to have a more holistic conversation with clients. 

Well, I think today's interview covered that in part, it's about taking an interest in what's going on in other business lines and forming new relationships with people outside of your own department. That will help you not only understand the business and the industry at a higher level, enabling you to serve your clients better, but it will also uncover collaboration opportunities, which can lead to stronger personal results. I do think though, that the responsibility for doing this also rests on companies and their leaders. They need to provide more collaboration and networking opportunities to facilitate the cross pollination of ideas and knowledge. 

Now I've got a blog post about this particular topic on the resources page of my website. If you'd like to explore it further, go to cresuccess.co/resources and look for the blog post from the fifth of April 2020 called Creating One Culture of Collaboration in CRE firms. In that post, I share what I think are the three most important levers to boost collaboration. They are leadership, communication, and compensation structures. 

If you've got a question that you'd like covered on our podcast, you can email it to me the address is Darren@cresuccess.co That's all we've got time for on this episode. Thank you very much for listening, and I will speak to you soon.



Thanks for listening to CRE Success: The Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform and be sure to leave us a five star review. For more information about the show, just check the show notes on your podcast app or visit us online at cresuccess.co

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